Fuck rice burners, and fucking foreign cars, buy something american, something that eats gas, and is huge, and stop trying to dress up a rice burner with pretty stickers, fucking colored hoses, and ghey ass ground effects. If you take that shit to a car dealer for a trade it, it will only decrease the value of that ugly piece of shit. Yeah, and let's be cool and race our rice burners around the streets, ghey! Come on, lets play MOVIES, and you can be the white guy and I will be the black guy, and we can pretend we are in the Fast and the Furious. Fucking jews! I like the John Deere!

JUTS ADD A TYPE-R STICKER ON TEH CAR, AND IT WILL GO FASTER THAN MY 5 NIGGER WAGON

my car owns your nigger fag jew spick gook wop cars

 

http://www.jldr.com/ohcl99_15.jpg

 

thats me on the right yah gay bitches WHAT NOW BIRRTH?WAHT!? BRING IT JEW I JUST LOVE WHEN A NIGGA BRING HIS WHOLE CREW ITS JUST A BIGGER PEICE OF CAKE FOR D)WN TO CHEEW A HOLE THROUOO!11!!1

anyone calling the Tib shit needs to realize, I'm not a rich daddy's boy like the sounds of a few fags in this topic. My daddy doesn't give me a discount porsche if I give him head, and I don't have 30 g's to import whatever I like.

 

Honestly if I had the money I'd get an Infiniti G35 which is basically Nissan's north american Skyline GT-R33 minus a couple things and with a few luxury items added.

I have a bike :cool2:

i ride in streaks basket k??//

anyone calling the Tib shit needs to realize, I'm not a rich daddy's boy like the sounds of a few fags in this topic. My daddy doesn't give me a discount porsche if I give him head, and I don't have 30 g's to import whatever I like.

 

Honestly if I had the money I'd get an Infiniti G35 which is basically Nissan's north american Skyline GT-R33 minus a couple things and with a few luxury items added.

 

Just because you're poor doesn't mean shit suddenly becomes good when you own it. Look at money. $5 doesn't magically become worth more just because you're poor. No, it's $5 for everybody. Shut face retard, poor people aren't special.

NWA']Just because you're poor doesn't mean shit suddenly becomes good when you own it. Look at money. $5 doesn't magically become worth more just because you're poor. No' date=' it's $5 for everybody. Shut face retard, poor people aren't special.[/quote']

 

what do you drive? your parents Cavalier?

I drive YOUR MOM and a Segway. Sometimes both at once.

i ride in streaks basket k??//

:cool2:

i bet the fin on the back makes it go faster

 

yeah, but you know that a rear spoiler on a front wheel drive car makes nothing but sense. you know, so you can take traction away from the drive wheels at high speeds.

anyone calling the Tib shit needs to realize, I'm not a rich daddy's boy like the sounds of a few fags in this topic. My daddy doesn't give me a discount porsche if I give him head, and I don't have 30 g's to import whatever I like.

 

Honestly if I had the money I'd get an Infiniti G35 which is basically Nissan's north american Skyline GT-R33 minus a couple things and with a few luxury items added.

 

 

Yeah. Except R-33's were made in what, 1995 or something?

Well I think Nissan was dropping an (un)subtle hint.

The last Japanese skyline made before this one was an R-34.

Therefore, THIS one, by all logic, is the R-35. G-35??? R-35?~?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!OENOEONENONEONE

 

IF YOU'RE NOT RWNT ENOUGH CLICKERING HERE PLZ

 

EDIT:CANT STOP OWNING YOU!

 

R33

http://www.japanparts.com/NissanParts/SkylineR33/R33.jpg

 

R34

http://www.taito.co.jp/gm/bg2/images/r34.jpg

 

R35

http://www.edmunds.com/media/2002/new_york/03.infiniti.g35.f34.500.jpg

snakeyes, we already went through that...it's impossible for a rear spoiler on any normal car to remove traction from front wheels...they actually DO help traction, even on FWD cars by increasing total downforce, and countering the "airplane wing" aerodynamics of a car, plus reducing air drag, by moving the pseudo-vaccuum created by the ass of the car passing through air further behind the actual body.

 

 

to pivot the car enough around the rear axel to create any loss of friction at the front tires, you'd have to create enough downforce to begin lifting at front tires....figure a thousand pound car (yeah, yeah...WAY too light for a RL car...but go with me here)...center of balance is about 2/3 of the way between front and rear axels, which is usually about 5 feet forward of rear axel...pivot point is 2 feet MAX behind rear axel...to create enough downpressure on the end of that 2 foot "lever", you have to produce 5K pounds of force on it to lift the dead weight (this totally discounts the downpressure created by the front clip and hood splitting the air as it goes through)

 

on a 6 inch by 5 foot surface, you have 2.5 square feet=2.5X144 sq inches....365 sq inches...

 

5000/365=13.69 psi BEYOND what's hitting front end to reach the needed figure to "flip" the car

 

unles your spoiler is angled enough over the angle of the front dam, the splitting of the air by that dam will counter ANY speed related downpressure created by the spoiler, since the front dam of most cars is 20+ inches by the same 5 feet width.

 

The whole purpose of a spoiler is to move the rear vaccuum dragpoint, and to counter the vaccuum created at the rear top corner of the car by the sudden "ending" of the body, by creating downforce in excess of the "upforce" created by the vaccuum that air creates above/behind the car as the profile drops from its highest point back to 0.

no, now you're arguing against the point of spoilers themselves just to argue your point.

 

the drive to traction would completely be affected by a strong rear spoiler, and the car receiving no downforce to the front end.

 

at high enough speeds the ass end of the car would be forced down, and the weight distribution would be biased.

 

i'm not saying the front wheels would be flying off the friggin ground, but there would be more downforce put to the front end than the rear.

Snakeyes']i'm not saying the front wheels would be flying off the friggin ground' date=' but there would be more downforce put to the front end than the rear.[/quote']

 

Rear end. Not the front. And Snakeyes and milk are right. You're putting a force on one side of a lever (we've already determined it's a lever) so, therefore, the other side must counter the force. You push down, other side goes up. "Pseudo-vacuum" pushes down on the rear of car, everything in front of the pivot point must move away from the road.

no downforce at the front snakeyes? what the fuck do you think the front air dam and hood cause as they split the airstream in order to pass through it?

 

despite the (comparitavely little) air that manages to get through the grill, the front profile of ANY car creates more downforce at the front than any spoiler I've seen on a street car is capable of.

 

figure it this way...biggest aftermarket bodykit spoiler I've seen listed for sale is for a civic body...it measures 63" wide by 7.3 inches ...for a grand total of 459.9 square inches of top surface creating downforce with air pressure... the car it's built for, however, has a STOCK front air dam with 61.3 inches of width, a 9.7 inch angled front bumper, for 594.61 sq inches of downforce with a greater angle of attack right there...on top of that, it has two headlights measuring 4.8" by 8.73 inches...41.904 sq inches each...again, higher angle of attack (83.808sq inches total in lights), plus the housing around the radiator grill...another 85.73 sq inches, again greater angle of attack, plus the body moulding between grill housing and hood, which is another 31.5 sq inches....THEN add the whole hood surface, which is angled about equivalent with most bodykit spoilers....and THEN add the downpressure created by the front windscreen...

 

once again...the purpose of a spoiler is to reduce drag, move the center of vaccuum further behind the car, and to increase TOTAL downpressure on the car at higher speeds...the shape of a car body creates lift and drag above and behind the REAR of a car because as the air that has been forced apart by the car as it passes through UP TO ITS TALLEST POINT (center of roof) starts to collapse back to "zero seperation", it has further to travel to get OVER the car (due to shape of car body) than it does to go UNDER car (pretty much flat), which creates the same sort of pseudo vaccuum that causes an airplane wing to create lift(anfd if you fucking geniuses haven't noticed, airplane wings are always situated FORWARD of the center of gravity of the body...because the vaccuum created above and behind the wings creates lift above and behind the wings...move the wings back, it's front heavy...takes off, and nose dives into the ground, as soon as it's going fast enough to move liftpoint TOO far behind center of gravity)...if you move the point of that vaccuum farter behind the body of the car, the "suction" created by it does NOT lift on the body of the car, nor does it "suck backwards" as much.

 

 

anyone who's ever ridden a motorcycle behind an 80 MPH semi on the freeway can tell you about that dragpoint, and anyone who's topped 120 MPH on an oval track can tell you about "floating"...and that it mostly affects the REAR of the car, no matter what the type of car they were driving....though the bulkier and squarer the ass of the car, the more float effects it, and the lower the speed you start feeling it.

 

 

As I said before...take my woird for this guys...I've been racing as long or longer than most of you have been alive...yes, I'm an old fucker, and a bit immature (most adrenal junkies are), but I DO know what I'm talking about here, in practice, in theory, and in the applied maths involved in it, and have proven it multiple times by having design work I've done myself work in public venues. Back when I DIDN'T understand it, I ended up in a number of "compromised control" accidents on tracks because of the lack of understanding, and haven't raced a motorcycle in 14 years due to injuries related to that lack of understanding (flipped a 1989 Honda Hurricane 1100 on track, spent 6 months in a wheelchair)

The facts is this: you are adding an outside force to one side of a lever. Without going into all that pseudo mathematics and just using 4th grade physics you can see that if you add a force on one side of a lever, the other side must move in the direction opposite of the force. That is the basis of a lever. Push down, goes up, pull up, goes down. If you're going to say that a car is a lever then you have to realize that all this pseudo mathematics means absolute shit because of that principle. Push down, goes up. Now if you're arguing that a downforce is added to both sides of the lever then you have to determine and show which side of the lever is getting forced down more (because we can assume that most cars are level and that the fulcrum is near the middle of the car, also assuming that the height of the rear and the front are near the same). Don't go into your pseudo talk again, it doesn't matter where the "pseudo vacuum" is. You are putting a force on a lever.

 

Once you come back and tell us there's more force on the rear of the car you can safely assume you are wrong. More force on rear = front must move in the direction opposite the force (up). If you tell us that there's more force on the front then you've completely disagreed with the theory that a spoiler adds downforce to the rear (yours as well). This pretty effectively kills your creditbility as an "old timer."

 

6 months? You pussy.

the fact is any force downward added by a rear spoiler is more than countered by the angle of every surface creating downforce forward of the highest point of the vehicle....the front dam had more surface and steeper angle than the spoiler, the hood has WAY more surface, at usually equivalent angle, the windscreen has WAY more surface and angle to it...this all equals wind pressure downwards in FRONT of that "pivot point"...FAR in excess of the pressure created by a spoiler...spoiler's purpose is to move the max vaccuum point farther behind the car to reduce drag and lift created by the narrowing/ending of the vehicle body...period. It does so by redirecting airflow...the result, in practice, is more percieved downforce at rear tires than is seen otherwise...at same time, all of the profile of the vehicle that is forcing air UP (every point forward of the "highest point) is creating "downforce" FORWARD of your precious pivot point (rear axel).

 

Only reason for "float" to happen at all is the "vaccuum" (low pressure) created as the profile of the vehicle becomes narrower (like where the rear windscreen suddenly drops, and the trunk chops off)...since the air has to move farther to fill the gap from above than below, this creates an airplane wing type "lift zone" to the rear top of the car...right over trunk on older cars, behind the trunk on newer ones, for the most part...use a spoiler to push that dropping air back "up", you create more "down force" on the car, and cause that low pressure area to move farther behind the car...which reduces drag and lift both, since it somewhat equalizes the distances travelled by the air masses creating the pressure zones. No pseudo math involved...pseudo vaccuum and pseudo lift, yes....only because it's not actual vaccuum, only low pressure, and not "lift" because the force is actually redirection of force, not applied direct force. You are not ADDING or SUBTRACTING any force...you are moving the point at which it comes to bear.

 

And yes...I lucked out, and only spent 6 months in the chair...then another 6 on crutches, and another 18 in physical therapy...that's what happens when you fracture 3 lumbar vertebrae, shatter a femur and patella, and get compound complex fractures of tibia and fibia of the other leg...I still set off metal detectors in the airport...which is great for raging the fuckers in the security lines anytime I travel...I can stall a line better than 30 minutes, if I play it right :)

Someone got an A in auto shop.

LOL...actually, I flunked shop in H.S....skipped class to go hang in the back parking lot too often. But I DID do well in science, and learned the shit covered in shop classes, despite all the skipping.

 

All the theory and practical knowledge I've drawn on in my posts on this thread comes from experience, not classes. I started racing at 15, in a 66 coupe mustang with the 289 (it performed miserably...I didn't know shit except the basics back then, and was limited to installing performance kits, rather than doing blueprinted rebuilds with custom machining), and have been involved with amature racing in some form or another ever since. In the past 17 years I've done 5 quarter mile cars, 3 oval trackers, a mini stocker, competed in road rally racing (not really racing, since the goal is to hit the checkpoints as close as possible to a preset time well within legal speed limits), and oval track motorcycle in superbike class, all as an amature racer...

 

If I had the $$ required, I could definately build a competative pro class stocker or pro fuel drag car...but I'm not a good enough driver to compete in professional classes...my reaction times are too slow for pro drag circuit, and my oval track driving abilities are not good enough to keep me off the wall when someone loses it in front of me.

You are misunderstanding. We are not addressing the "float" in the rear of the car. Using your own proofs we can prove that a spoiler creates less friction because it is moving the vacuum behind the car. If you want traction on the drive wheels (in FWD vehicles) then you don't want the vacuum behind the car. The "float" would only increase friction by pushing the front tires into the road with more force. Once you hit high enough speeds the rear tires will come OFF the road, effectively putting more friction on the front tires as more weight is being put on the tires causing them to be forced into the road. You've proven yourself that spoilers take away from the downforce on the front wheels and shift it to the rear wheels. If you want traction you want "floating."

 

The reason drag racers have the big fin on them is because they are REAR WHEEL DRIVE and the fin creates a DOWNFORCE on the back. The DOWNFORCE translates into higher friction which means the machine as a whole becomes more EFFICIENT. This DOES NOT work for front wheel drive cars. You are putting force on a LEVER. If you pop up the front of the car and it is front wheel drive it WILL NOT MOVE. This is because there is no friction. The only reason to EVER put a spoiler on a FWD car is to keep it on the track at high speeds. This decreases your acceleration but it is so minute that you won't notice it unless you time the 0-60 with and without to the 6th or 7th decimal most likely.

 

Acceleration in cars generally decreases as you speed up for the "floating" reason because your tires have more air between them and the road at high speeds than at rest. If you increase the force at the back you are adding DEAD WEIGHT to a FWD car. Dead weight in this case means weight that only contributes to the mass of the car and not the efficiency of the system. You have progressively decreasing acceleration at the front and, at the same time, progressively increasing dead weight (note that it is weight because the mass doesn't change thx). More weight and less surface area on the road = less friction = less acceleration. This is the part of shop that you obviously failed on.

 

PS - Two and a half years = wuss. Wiggle your big toe.

and you expect the car to handle HOW well with less rear wheel traction?

 

you don't reduce drive friction on a FWD car with a rear spoiler, but you decrease the loss of friction to rear tires with one...which improves handling...this is why modern sports luxury and luxury cars often have a feature which drops the ground clearance after maintaining a certain speed for a certain period...to reduce the airflow imbalances which cause the "lift" in the rear.

 

half the modern sports cars out are AWD or FWD...yet sports packages almost always come with a rear spoiler, if it's not inherent in the bodystyle as is...you think professional auto designers do this for looks?

 

Do I really need to draw you diagrams to explain this NWA? I never said a rear spoiler was for increasing weight on the front tires...I stated that they CAN'T reduce weight to them, and that their purpose is to increase downforce on the rear of the car, and move the drag point further behind the vehicle...the purpose behind all of this is NOT increased drive friction...it is for HANDLING (which is NOT a serious consideration in a drag racing car of pro fuel class...per your example...a straight line car just needs to keep the drive wheels on the ground, and stay in a straight line, so they are often designed specifically TO lift the non-drive tires off the ground during initial acceleration for a marginal reduction in total friction resistance to acceleration in the all important first 100 yards)...by moving drag point to the rear and increasing the TOTAL downforce experienced by the vehicle, while moving the point of maximum "lift" created by the pseudo-vaccuum created by the narrowing of the car body between highest point of profile and end of body to a point where it has less, if any, affect on the actual body of the car, you increase handling...the surfaces simply are not there for a spoiler to create sufficient downforce to counteract the downforce created by airflow over the "rising" portions of the car body in front of the rear axel, much less to do that AND produce the nesseccary force to counter the fact that the majority of the weight is 5X farther foward of your "pivot" than the downforce applied by the spoiler is behind it.

 

 

To go back to your drag cars....you're referring to vehicles that are deliberately made in such a way that the most effective body style is almost rediculously long...this is done in order to move the cenetr of gravity farther forward to prevent flipping (not always successfully)...because the most speed effective way to design such vehicles is RWD, with the motor mounted behind the cockpit...thus the majority of "functional" weight in the vehicle is within 2 to 3 feet of the rear axel...couple this with 60 inch high friction tires, and massive amounts of torque, your "lever" is designed in such a way as to easily lift any normal front end, so they move the front suspension WAY out in front to add weight at the end of a long lever, making it less likely to spin the car body around the axel, rather than spinning the tires around it :) You're comparing two entirely different animals, though the physics affecting them remain the same. Handling is just not an issue in a straight line racer, where it IS an issue in performance vehicles, oval trackers, figure 8 trackers, and other race venues.

 

and float doesn't only effect the rear end, though that's where the "lift" is strongest...just like with an airplane wing, if you create enough vaccuum over the rear surface of a car, it will lift the whole car enouvh to cause bad enough reduction in handling to prevent ANY ability to steer through a hard corner..in some cases, it's even been known to be sufficient to cause the whole car to go airbourne until it flipped ass over nose, killing the driver in most cases...plenty of footage showing this happening...get footage of Bonneville Speed Week from any year you wish, and you'll see some examples of it in action. Most recent one I recall was the 2001 case of the NOS injected Camaro that topped 260MPH, but got airbourne, flipped several times, and came to rest on its roof, before it held the speed long enough to make it "official". In comparison...during the same get-together, several "ricers" successfully topped the 265 MPH mark...and, yes, every fucking one of them had a rear spoiler, none of them lost traction to the front (drive) tires as a result.

We aren't talking about handling. We are talking about acceleration. Acceleration and handling have NOTHING in common. When you look at acceleration you see that both the drag racer and the common car are controlled by the same principles. I'm talking about acceleration due to surface area and friction. When you regard them both as "straight line racers" you find that the drag racer's acceleration increases and that the regular car's decreases. This is because of 1) downforce on the fin and 2) FWD vs RWD (and 3) fin size if you want to get technical and compare it to RWD cars too). Nobody cares about handling, handling has never been the discussion. The discussion has centered on creating a downforce on the rear causing the front to have a reduced force which will reduce friction. The reason drag racers work is that the wheels are being pushed down into the road so that friction is increasing and the efficiency is too. It makes absolutely NO sense to try to gain acceleration by going against the exact properties that make drag racers work.

 

Spoilers are put on a car by designers for two reasons: 1) aesthetic appeal (makes people buy them because they look "classier") 2) to keep the rear tires on the road and the car going in a straight line (handling). Manufacturers don't give a shit about how fast you can go because they don't sell if So-and-So rates it's safety poorly. Once they satisfy the "keep the tires on the road" requirement they go for aesthetics. Only AFTER both of these do they go for speed. Frankly, a good looking car outsells a higher performance one for one simple reason: it looks better. Manufacturers know this. Only a small percentage of people buying cars buy cars for performance over aesthetics. You're probably part of that percentage. Good for you, you know what you're doing.

 

EDITOR0Z: Guess why it flips ass over nose? Yeah, that's right: it's a lever. If you hit the side of a lever from the bottom it will flip over the other side. The lift from the vacuum is your fist and the rear of the car is the side of a lever. It has nothing to do with the rest of the car other than the fact that the rear is part of the car as a whole.

wow i cant beleive how well this picture fits this stupid fucking thread

 

http://d0wn.stfunewb.org/Pics/domesticEthug.jpg

1. spoilers or body mods are completley usless on slow shit cars (civic,tiburon,type Fags sticker cars)

2.the skyline isn't your average family car, i doubt any of you here can drive it.